[Jean Todt]

Okay guys, I have been going through the thread named 'some Interesting Articles On Global Warming'.....

I see a lot of different opinion on the topic, honestly, I don't have anything interesting to say so I will just listen rather than voice my opinion...

But I want to know what you guys think of electric cars, because Tesla have shown the world that Electric cars no donkeys, the can be fun, for a start its not bad at all, now almost all the manufacturers are thinking of bringing electric cars of all forms, sizes and shapes..With Renault planing to launch some regular models, Audi working on electric variant of their lovley R8, Merc on their SLS etc etc....the attitude towards electric cars are changing increasingly. I don't buy the crap that electric cars are zero emission cars unless you own a windmill farm to charge your car. But well, with today's technology we can even charge several thousands of Lithium ion (with some titanate electrodes) batteries within just ten minutes.

What do you think?

[pabloh20]

Jean Todt, on 16 December 2009 - 02:39 PM, said:

Okay guys, I have been going through the thread named 'some Interesting Articles On Global Warming'.....

I see a lot of different opinion on the topic, honestly, I don't have anything interesting to say so I will just listen rather than voice my opinion...

But I want to know what you guys think of electric cars, because Tesla have shown the world that Electric cars no donkeys, the can be fun, for a start its not bad at all, now almost all the manufacturers are thinking of bringing electric cars of all forms, sizes and shapes..With Renault planing to launch some regular models, Audi working on electric variant of their lovley R8, Merc on their SLS etc etc....the attitude towards electric cars are changing increasingly. I don't buy the crap that electric cars are zero emission cars unless you own a windmill farm to charge your car. But well, with today's technology we can even charge several thousands of Lithium ion (with some titanate electrodes) batteries within just ten minutes.

What do you think?

I think they're a great idea, it's just a pity you can only travel 10 feet before the plug comes out the wall

Seriously, though, it's not just the charging, as you rightly point out, but also the maufacture/transportation of the batteries. I hope there's a better solution out there as I don't think electric cars are the answer yet.

[Jean Todt]

pabloh20, on 16 December 2009 - 02:54 PM, said:

I think they're a great idea, it's just a pity you can only travel 10 feet before the plug comes out the wall

Seriously, though, it's not just the charging, as you rightly point out, but also the maufacture/transportation of the batteries. I hope there's a better solution out there as I don't think electric cars are the answer yet.

http://www.teslamoto...odels/index.php

[pabloh20]

Jean Todt, on 16 December 2009 - 03:02 PM, said:

http://www.teslamoto...odels/index.php

On paper it looks great, I bet it doesn't work like that in practice

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

OK....

Good thing about electric cars - no emissions (well from the car); high torque; rapid acceleration (can be comparable or better than petrol); quiet; less moving parts; no gears.

The problem with electric cars is how do you get the power stored/produced?

Current battery technologies are limited - Lead Acid are powerful, deliver large current wedges but have limited capacity and to drive the car any distance are woefully heavy. Lithium ion, the sort that are used in phones and laptops are quite efficient, but suffer from limited lifespan (500 charge cycles) - and degrade over this time, take a long time to charge (5-7 hours to get full capacity) and generate a lot of heat when charging. They also have a nasty habit of exploding/catching fire in rare circumstances.

Also, where does the power come from? 1) needs infrastructure which isn't there - how do you charge it when out and about and can you afford to be waiting hours to get a charge? 2) to create power means usually burning fossil fuels, so carbon friendly, they are not.

Of course you can have hybrids like the Prius which top up the batteries or can run on petrol when batteries go flat. But this is not a pure electric car.

Diesel electric trains work on the basis that they have a diesel engine driving a generator - so they carry the generation source with them. Not really viable.

Battery technologies are moving on - next generation include polymer-ion which in theory have 10 minute charge cycles, but generate *huge* amounts of heat which has to be dissipated and fuel cells which use catalysts to degrade methanol to create energy, water and CO2 - if you are doing this you may as well burn methanol.

However, I will make a prediction - there will never be a mass-produced "ordinary" electric car that can compete with petrol/other sources in my lifetime.... and maybe beyond.

More likely will be the use of hydrogen fuel cells which produce and burn hydrogen in a conventional engine, creating water as the only emission. I think its Honda that have already developed a concept car around this. But this will only happen after they have wrung every last penny out of the fossil fuel reserves.

This post has been edited by Grabthaw the Hammerslayer: 16 December 2009 - 07:42 PM

[Kopite Girl]

I don't know much about them really. But is there any electric motorcycles?

[Argento Reloaded]

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

Kopite Girl, on 16 December 2009 - 06:45 PM, said:

I don't know much about them really. But is there any electric motorcycles?

Yep:

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/

http://www.brammo.com/home/

[maure]

Interesting topic. I don't recognize your handle, though, so I cannot gauge your take properly.

Still.

Did you know that one of the first cars ever built was electric? I'll let you search for it. Some models beat speed records early on.

In any case, the problem with electricity is that it is not a power _source_. Rather, it must be produced. In order to produce it, real energy sources must be employed, which implies in all cases, petroleum/natural gas/etc.

And, btw, windmills are just windmills. Don't go nuts there or, well, Quixote away...

So, electric cars will remain a niche, bigger or smaller, but unfortunately not mainstream because this would require a complete restructuring of modern societies. I don't see that coming as things stand now... I could of course take my personal jet to Copenhagen and drive my personal limousine to the convention but even from here (a world away) I can tell it is all the same political bullsht. As always.

As personal vehicle of choice, this is like voting for Obama due to white guilt. In other words, it's ok, maybe even good for your conscience. Go green, drive electric, save the planet, wee on a tree.

As for the electric vehicles themselves, in only the last decade we've seen great improvements in all aspects, from battery life to engine power. Sports models are out there already. Recharging is a pain but that is what nights are for.

Ultimately, hydrogen vehicles would be better but the distribution network for electricity is already in place while that for hydrogen isn't.

[maure]

[cavallino]

Jean Todt, on 16 December 2009 - 02:39 PM, said:

But I want to know what you guys think of electric cars, because Tesla have shown the world that Electric cars no donkeys, the can be fun, for a start its not bad at all, now almost all the manufacturers are thinking of bringing electric cars of all forms, sizes and shapes..With Renault planing to launch some regular models, Audi working on electric variant of their lovley R8, Merc on their SLS etc etc....the attitude towards electric cars are changing increasingly. I don't buy the crap that electric cars are zero emission cars unless you own a windmill farm to charge your car. But well, with today's technology we can even charge several thousands of Lithium ion (with some titanate electrodes) batteries within just ten minutes.

What do you think?

Unless we have some spectacular new developments in battery technology, it is very unlikely that electric cars will ever be more than a niche product. There isn't enough Lithium, and the batteries degrade - look at your own laptop's battery life. They may tell you the battery has a life of 5 years, what they won't tell you is the life of your battery at 4.5 years as opposed to when it was brand new. Also remember, the Tesla roadster may be fun, but it is also amazingly impractical.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

maure, on 17 December 2009 - 03:39 AM, said:

Interesting topic. I don't recognize your handle, though, so I cannot gauge your take properly.

Jean Todt = Abbas. Me? Well Maure I could tell you but you would only go blah

maure, on 17 December 2009 - 03:39 AM, said:

As for the electric vehicles themselves, in only the last decade we've seen great improvements in all aspects, from battery life to engine power. Sports models are out there already. Recharging is a pain but that is what nights are for.

The problem is a bit more practical than that. If my car is running out of petrol. I can go to any petrol station and get a top-up - allows me to drive instantly for another 300 - 400 miles. When a battery driven car runs out of juice. You have to plug in and it takes hours to charge using current battery technologies. For me this will always limit electric cars to cities/short hops. they exist now but you would not drive long distances in one.

This lack of instant refresh will always hamper battery cars. No-one going on a long journey would want to have hours waiting. Ain't gonna happen. Battery technologies are not there. The polymer-ion versions are already being used in industrial vehicles beat its the heat dissipation that is the problem.

Batteries also degrade and can't see people being happy to shell out thousands to get them replaced. Or for that matter be happy to see their car's range drop day by day.

maure, on 17 December 2009 - 03:39 AM, said:

Ultimately, hydrogen vehicles would be better but the distribution network for electricity is already in place while that for hydrogen isn't.

Well depends - if its gaseous hydrogen, this could be delivered from existing petrol stations - many already do LPG which is in a gaseous form. There will be a transition, but can see that happening quite quick. But some other cars using methanol to derive hydrogen and this is a liquid which could be delivered using existing infrastructure.

Still stand by my belief that they will never be mainstream. Hybrids, yes. Hydrogen, yes. Pure electric, for townies/short hops only unless a new battery technology comes along.

This post has been edited by Grabthaw the Hammerslayer: 17 December 2009 - 08:08 AM

[maure]

Grabthaw the Hammerslayer, on 17 December 2009 - 08:07 AM, said:

Jean Todt = Abbas. Me? Well Maure I could tell you but you would only go blah

Smiling was appropriate on your part. I don't give a rat's arse.

Grabthaw the Hammerslayer, on 17 December 2009 - 08:07 AM, said:

The problem is a bit more practical than that. If my car is running out of petrol. I can go to any petrol station and get a top-up - allows me to drive instantly for another 300 - 400 miles.

You are correct. However, most often most people don't drive 300 - 400 miles and then refuel for another several hundred more. Putting aside freight and fun, road vehicles are for commuting.

Grabthaw the Hammerslayer, on 17 December 2009 - 08:07 AM, said:

Well depends - if its gaseous hydrogen, this could be delivered from existing petrol stations - many already do LPG which is in a gaseous form. There will be a transition, but can see that happening quite quick. But some other cars using methanol to derive hydrogen and this is a liquid which could be delivered using existing infrastructure.

It could be done but it's not there, the infrastructure, I mean.

I wonder... yes... I do.

Grabthaw the Hammerslayer, on 17 December 2009 - 08:07 AM, said:

Still stand by my belief that they will never be mainstream. Hybrids, yes. Hydrogen, yes. Pure electric, for townies/short hops only unless a new battery technology comes along.

In the future:

Mainstream will drive whatever means of transportation hell provides.

Atheists will get to be omnipresent thus lacking need of transportation.

Those of us left will get the best, that is, to not exist anymore.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

maure, on 17 December 2009 - 08:26 AM, said:

Smiling was appropriate on your part. I don't give a rat's arse.

And neither do I

maure, on 17 December 2009 - 08:26 AM, said:

You are correct. However, most often most people don't drive 300 - 400 miles and then refuel for another several hundred more. Putting aside freight and fun, road vehicles are for commuting.

I accept that long distance travel is rarer however the charge "life" of an electric car is x miles (whatever that maybe).

EDIT: Just saw this: http://www.reghardwa...bmw_activee/new BMW 1-series. Electric with 100 mile range (100 miles???) and weighs 2 tons ouch. 0-90 in 9 seconds. hmmm

Most people will probably charge up once, drive until the charge is low and recharge. Problem comes when you for whatever reason have to go further, forgot to charge that morning, find yourself somewhere where your "juice" is running out, use more battery power than you were expecting - hot day - aircon, etc - we've all been there with Petrol - running on fumes - crap where's the nearest petrol station.....? Except with Petrol when you find it - you can drive off straight away. With current battery technologies you can't - you have to plug in and wait. and wait. and wait.

Ah! You will say, then charge it every day. OK, but practically:

1) I don't have the infrastructure in my house to do that, would have to get someone to lay a cable outside to my car bay. Many would be in this position. What about those who can't park outside their house? Do we even have the generating capacity to deal with millions of trickle charging cars? How much is this going to cost?

2) Constant charging in a "top-up" fashion shortens battery life and increases risk of "memory effect" where battery life shortens. Not a problem with Lead-Acid but far more of a problem with more recent battery technologies. Ouchy expensive battery replacements.

Electric vehicles will play an increasing role in cities where it is easy to put infrastructure in.

But ultimately, future will be in hydrogen cells. Has to be. Unless battery technologies evolve.

This post has been edited by Grabthaw the Hammerslayer: 17 December 2009 - 12:20 PM

[Argento Reloaded]

[AleHop]

Electric cars? Errmm... They're handy for golf.

[HandyNZL]

Kopite Girl, on 16 December 2009 - 06:45 PM, said:

I don't know much about them really. But is there any electric motorcycles?

Michael Cysz od Motocysz fame is working on a high performance electric bike. He gave up on his own MotoGP / Superbike spec petrol engine bike saying he'd rather lead in a new field than try to catch up in one that is almost over.

As for electric cars - they have been around for a hundred years in one shape or other...they will never ever be a mass produced viable option. Bio-fuels (from algae's NOT foodstuffs) and hydrogen/H20 fed engines will be the future.

[maurethegreat2]

Gay.

[lewisthegreat2]

mikathegreat2, on 20 December 2009 - 11:37 PM, said:

Gay.

What a well thought-out and mature response. You're right. Electric cars only hump other electric cars. Sad times

Electric cars? I like them. I like all things that are cool super fun advancements of super cool science yeah! The auto manufactures will decide what the answer is, and they're saying it's electric, so electric it is. It's not perfect; electricity has to come from somewhere (hydrogen!!!!!!!!!), but it beats the proposed alternatives (hi Ethanol. You blow. Bye).

I think they're a good idea and I'm really interested to see them develop. Best way to develop them? Race them! Yeah! Innovation in auto racing! Worst idea ever! No one wants that!

[HandyNZL]

lewisthegreat2, on 21 December 2009 - 12:35 AM, said:

What a well thought-out and mature response. You're right. Electric cars only hump other electric cars. Sad times

Electric cars? I like them. I like all things that are cool super fun advancements of super cool science yeah! The auto manufactures will decide what the answer is, and they're saying it's electric, so electric it is. It's not perfect; electricity has to come from somewhere (hydrogen!!!!!!!!!), but it beats the proposed alternatives (hi Ethanol. You blow. Bye).

I think they're a good idea and I'm really interested to see them develop. Best way to develop them? Race them! Yeah! Innovation in auto racing! Worst idea ever! No one wants that!

But will they have a 2008 spec rear wing?

[Jean Todt]

Kopite Girl, on 16 December 2009 - 06:45 PM, said:

I don't know much about them really. But is there any electric motorcycles?

http://www.motorcycl...ee_013_E_tw.jpg

[JHS]

lewisthegreat2, on 21 December 2009 - 12:35 AM, said:

What a well thought-out and mature response. You're right. Electric cars only hump other electric cars. Sad times

Rubbish, he's clearly refering to them as being happy cars!

(Although homosexuals may or may not drive them, I never ask personally)

[ecapdeville]

Kopite Girl, on 16 December 2009 - 06:45 PM, said:

I don't know much about them really. But is there any electric motorcycles?

they are on their way!



Now and until the last drop of pretoleum is wasted, this projects are just that...prototypes, oil companies rules the world (ask that to some Arabic countries) so the interest to find "greener" ways to travel is quite small...technology are really fast nowadays, when the world have the necessity of other type of "fuel" it will be made.

[Autumnpuma]

Electric cars are great! Mine was an Aurora AFX set (circa 1970s) and I loved it! It wasn't the cheap, easy set that came later in the 80s, this was the set that you needed throttle control to get your car around the bendy bits.

[ecapdeville]

Autumnpuma, on 19 February 2010 - 09:15 PM, said:

Electric cars are great! Mine was an Aurora AFX set (circa 1970s) and I loved it! It wasn't the cheap, easy set that came later in the 80s, this was the set that you needed throttle control to get your car around the bendy bits.

hehe, since 1970´s everybody are promising things that will get us the "Closest thing to real racing"...now even F1 is far away from to "real racing"...

nice set Puma!

[monza gorilla]

Autumnpuma, on 19 February 2010 - 09:15 PM, said:

Electric cars are great! Mine was an Aurora AFX set (circa 1970s) and I loved it! It wasn't the cheap, easy set that came later in the 80s, this was the set that you needed throttle control to get your car around the bendy bits.

I've still got mine somewhere. Much battle scarred. Scalextric was just too big and unwieldy even it it had more....purity.

Apropos electric cars, though, I can see their popularity rising fast, especially if they're like this:


Full recharge in 10 minutes ain't bad. Have a look at their site: Top Secret

[Jean Todt]

monza gorilla, on 20 February 2010 - 03:43 PM, said:

I've still got mine somewhere. Much battle scarred. Scalextric was just too big and unwieldy even it it had more....purity.

Apropos electric cars, though, I can see their popularity rising fast, especially if they're like this:


Full recharge in 10 minutes ain't bad. Have a look at their site: Top Secret

Yes, we discused about this car during the meeting with a very well respected professor.

If this car does go well as they said, it could revolutionize the whole of Electric car market.

What I would like to see from this car is how it can negotiate corners with electric motors mounted in each wheels increasing the unsprung weight..

Something that Tesla avoided using because of such issues....I am sure they know what they are doing, but I am really interested to know how they solved that issue.

I am not a green guy or someone who would drive a Prius to convince others that I am concerned about Eco stuff....we don't know how much is true or lies...

What I am concerned however is the fact oil is not going to stay forever....we need to look at alternatives.....and with the kind of progress we have witnessed in the auto industry, it does look that some people are trying very hard indeed to develop an alternative...I am pleased to see their determination despite many limitations for now...only if we can put an effort now to improve and keep developing these alternatives, we can avoid facing a time when we would all be stuck after we run out of oil...we need to be ready for such times...we need to save oil for other things like aviation, public transportation, shipping industry, for the exotic cars etc etc.....but unfortunately for now we dont really see an electric car that we can afford, even though there are few of them who do perform well....they are not in a form of our needs....

This post has been edited by Jean Todt: 20 February 2010 - 06:07 PM

[Autumnpuma]

Seriously, I would like to see a dependable self-recharging electric motor used for most vehicles. Exceptions would be anything with 10 or more cylinders. The thought of killing the near-orgasmic sound of the Lambos and Ferraris out there is just criminal. I'd rather beat a baby seal to death with my mother's fake arm than kill a Lambo.

[Jean Todt]

Autumnpuma, on 24 February 2010 - 09:49 PM, said:

Seriously, I would like to see a dependable self-recharging electric motor used for most vehicles. Exceptions would be anything with 10 or more cylinders. The thought of killing the near-orgasmic sound of the Lambos and Ferraris out there is just criminal. I'd rather beat a baby seal to death with my mother's fake arm than kill a Lambo.

Read the last paragraph of my previous post Mr.Puma...

[Autumnpuma]

I'm not surprised that we agree with each other.