[brambilla]

Hey all, I'm a refugee from the f1-Live boards, since ESPN took over, They havent brought any forums up, or maybe they did and I dont like the layout of the site . I havent followed Bruno Senna in the GP2 Series, and I was wondering what his impact will be on F1, I know he's lost out too many years to be at an Alonso/Raikkonen/Vettel levell, but will he at least live up to a Webber/Heidfeld level (ie competent driver). I know we'll find something out in 2 days - or maybe not since this is essentially a shakedown for HRT, I'm really hoping Bruno wont prove to be completely out of his depth, that'd be sad. Any opinion on how he might pan out ?

[Kopite Girl]

I'd like to comment, but for me its just not logical enough as he hasn't even completed or started a race yet. Sorry dude. But welcome to the forums.

[JHS]

Based on lower Formula, I'd say it was mostly family name break. He's unproven in my eyes, he's a solid driver but nothing on the hype that surronds him because of his name. He didn't beat Pantano to the GP2 title, and using Pantano as the yardstick (a guy who has never done spectacularly well in anything other than GP2) I'm not sure he's the best candidate for a new team. They'd have been better off with someone experienced like Heidfeld or Fisichella.

But I don't know, it seems ever difficult to call how somebody will do just from their GP2 experiences. Look at Kobayashi. Everyone thought he'd be truly hopeless in F1 based on what he'd acchieved in GP2 (ie, not much) but now he's being called the "Next Japanese hope". Grosjean too. I remember one person calling him "the next Prost", but after less than half a year in F1, his career has died and he's disappeared off the face of the earth. People (including myself, I'll admit) have questioned the likes of Chandok and Petrov getting F1 seats when their GP2 records arn't exactly mouth-watering (unlike Hulkenberg's) but they may yet find their feet in F1.

Let's just see. I'm sceptical but willing to be proven wrong. Besides, he seems a nice enough kid.

[The Professor]

He seemed decent in F3 and quick in GP2, but he's more likely to be solid than spectacular. Not beating Pantano says a lot; but that wasn't completely down to him if memory serves. Also, before we are too quick to judge, people should remember his lack of racing experience due to Ayrton's death (his family didn't want him racing) - what he has achieved with comparatively less experience than others is pretty impressive.

Will he survive in F1? It depends on a few things, how he is managed and how drivable the car is. He is in a good position, though, entering the sport with a seemingly uncompetitive team = less pressure. Personally, I doubt the Hormone Replacement Therapy team will last very long so Bruno has little time to impress.

Oh, and please, no criticisms he played on his name to get to the grid; any driver who doesn't use every asset he has to get a drive, isn't a true racing driver.

[maurethegreat2]

Name break. Besides his real last name is Lalli!

[The Professor]

Nivola, on 11 March 2010 - 10:15 PM, said:

Oh, and please, no criticisms he played on his name to get to the grid; any driver who doesn't use every asset he has to get a drive, isn't a true racing driver.

mikathegreat2, on 11 March 2010 - 10:17 PM, said:

Name break. Besides his real last name is Lalli!

JHS gets a pardon because he used this criticism before I posted. What is your defence?

[jackgarrett]

I believe he is a great talent. He is inexperinced but so has every other champtionship his has been in and he is getting better in highter quality championships. I think F1 is perfect for him to get real xp and dare is say he is born for F1. I an not saying he got into F1 on pure skill alone but to start racing at 21 and to get into F1 at 27 is impresive.

This post has been edited by jackgarrett: 11 March 2010 - 11:43 PM

[Jean Todt]

brambilla, on 11 March 2010 - 08:26 PM, said:

Hey all, I'm a refugee from the f1-Live boards, since ESPN took over, They havent brought any forums up, or maybe they did and I dont like the layout of the site . I havent followed Bruno Senna in the GP2 Series, and I was wondering what his impact will be on F1, I know he's lost out too many years to be at an Alonso/Raikkonen/Vettel levell, but will he at least live up to a Webber/Heidfeld level (ie competent driver). I know we'll find something out in 2 days - or maybe not since this is essentially a shakedown for HRT, I'm really hoping Bruno wont prove to be completely out of his depth, that'd be sad. Any opinion on how he might pan out ?

Don't be shy Bruno.....you can tell us your real name... No...not Sacha...I mean, Bruno Senna....

Just tell us how much did you pay HRT....

[Autumnpuma]

brambilla, on 11 March 2010 - 08:26 PM, said:

Hey all, I'm a refugee from the f1-Live boards, since ESPN took over, They havent brought any forums up, or maybe they did and I dont like the layout of the site . I havent followed Bruno Senna in the GP2 Series, and I was wondering what his impact will be on F1, I know he's lost out too many years to be at an Alonso/Raikkonen/Vettel levell, but will he at least live up to a Webber/Heidfeld level (ie competent driver). I know we'll find something out in 2 days - or maybe not since this is essentially a shakedown for HRT, I'm really hoping Bruno wont prove to be completely out of his depth, that'd be sad. Any opinion on how he might pan out ?

Welcome! Pull up a chair and stay a while.

How will he do...I'll get back to you after Bahrain.

JHS, on 11 March 2010 - 09:15 PM, said:

Based on lower Formula, I'd say it was mostly family name break. He's unproven in my eyes, he's a solid driver but nothing on the hype that surronds him because of his name. He didn't beat Pantano to the GP2 title, and using Pantano as the yardstick (a guy who has never done spectacularly well in anything other than GP2) I'm not sure he's the best candidate for a new team. They'd have been better off with someone experienced like Heidfeld or Fisichella.

But I don't know, it seems ever difficult to call how somebody will do just from their GP2 experiences. Look at Kobayashi. Everyone thought he'd be truly hopeless in F1 based on what he'd acchieved in GP2 (ie, not much) but now he's being called the "Next Japanese hope". Grosjean too. I remember one person calling him "the next Prost", but after less than half a year in F1, his career has died and he's disappeared off the face of the earth. People (including myself, I'll admit) have questioned the likes of Chandok and Petrov getting F1 seats when their GP2 records arn't exactly mouth-watering (unlike Hulkenberg's) but they may yet find their feet in F1.

Let's just see. I'm sceptical but willing to be proven wrong. Besides, he seems a nice enough kid.

Good thoughts here. I would add that Pantano is, much like Justin Wilson, undeservedly underrated. Perhaps it's my liking of driver that throws a car around, but I really enjoyed Pantano's car-sliding ways when he was in the Jordan...I would have liked to have see him stick around a bit longer.

Of the rookies, it seems clear that the Hulk will dominate, but I'm looking forward to being surprised.

This post has been edited by Autumnpuma: 12 March 2010 - 08:06 AM

[DOF_power]

GP2 is spec series and current spec-series are not a good way to realistically paint a picture as it could be a simple case of the spec suiting ones driving style/habits and/or some having more money to invest in setup test drivers.


If anything this spec-ing has blurred the picture in seeing if someone has the work ethic and adaptability needed for F1.

This post has been edited by DOF_power: 12 March 2010 - 10:39 AM

[Autumnpuma]

Possibly, DOF, but I spotted many a good racer while they were in GP2. Hamilton comes to mind. Counter-point, I suppose, would be Piquet Jr., but when you look close at his GP2 drives, they seemed barely-controlled mayhem. It's like any series, you need to understand the pecking order of the teams to properly judge the worth of the drivers.

This post has been edited by Autumnpuma: 12 March 2010 - 08:25 PM

[ecapdeville]

Welcome to the forums!

Will be hard to know the real potential of this driver, because the "car" he will drive is a complete mistery (will the engine even start?) so...

Dont think will be an easy season for him... maybe he should wait a little more to have a better car to show his real performance.

greetings from mexico!!!

and ready to the race, tomorrow qualy at 5 am!

[Quiet One]

On track? Who knows? Outside the track he strikes me as a very mature, self centered guy. I like his personality, so far.

I wish him the best. I know his uncle would have wanted the same (and nothing less)

[JHS]

I really feel sorry for the guy after seeing today. It must be hard to keep your chin up when you are driving to the edge (and sometimes beyond) your limits, but whatever you do you're 12-13 seconds off the pace and being overtaken constantly. I'm amazed he's been see smiling (and Chandhok too) and laughing so much when the cameras are on him in the garage. What's the saying? "Things can only get better?"

+1 for optimism too saying that HRT could knock 5 seconds off that time pretty quickly. Hmm, I'm not so sure.

If I was Bruno, I'd be getting my agents to talk to some guys in bigger teams already about drives for 2011. I think this will be a very character building year for young Bruno. With luck, hopefully his funding and his name will help him secure a better seat in '11. Because let's be honest, HRT isn't exactly going to be the best place to show us what he can do.

[Jean Todt]

JHS, on 12 March 2010 - 10:08 PM, said:

If I was Bruno, I'd be getting my agents to talk to some guys in bigger teams already about drives for 2011. I think this will be a very character building year for young Bruno. With luck, hopefully his funding and his name will help him secure a better seat in '11. Because let's be honest, HRT isn't exactly going to be the best place to show us what he can do.

He just came in.....not everyone in F1 get chance like Hami......

[Quiet One]

As James Allen pointed out, Chandhok pointed out that Dallara builds GP2 cars. These cars have more power and downforce for starters than GP2 so they will probably catch up faster than you think.

[JHS]

Jean Todt, on 12 March 2010 - 10:11 PM, said:

He just came in.....not everyone in F1 get chance like Hami......

Fair point, although if the rumours are true, he was believed to be in discussions with Renault when Campos's future looked shakey.

[Autumnpuma]

Jean Todt, on 12 March 2010 - 10:11 PM, said:

He just came in.....not everyone in F1 get chance like Hami......

You're skirting blasphemy. A racing driver's success isn't just dependent on what happens inside the c#ckpit. Hamilton's road to McLaren wasn't paved with luck, but hard work that other drivers just didn't do. Lewis and his dad put in a lot of work, hard-earned money and sweat equity in karts to be in a position to approach Ron Dennis at a young age. They made ballsy introductions and Lewis (still just a kid) said to Ron's face that he wanted to drive for him one day. That sort of confidence and nerve is rare. But after that introduction, Hamilton had to prove his worth. He did so and that got him Ron's help. Lewis' continued talent and pure speed on the racetrack in every race he's been entered in got him into a McLaren.

Hamilton created his chances in life....I wonder if we can say the same for young Senna?

[The Professor]

Autumnpuma, on 13 March 2010 - 12:37 AM, said:

You're skirting blasphemy. A racing driver's success isn't just dependent on what happens inside the c#ckpit. Hamilton's road to McLaren wasn't paved with luck, but hard work that other drivers just didn't do. Lewis and his dad put in a lot of work, hard-earned money and sweat equity in karts to be in a position to approach Ron Dennis at a young age. They made ballsy introductions and Lewis (still just a kid) said to Ron's face that he wanted to drive for him one day. That sort of confidence and nerve is rare. But after that introduction, Hamilton had to prove his worth. He did so and that got him Ron's help. Lewis' continued talent and pure speed on the racetrack in every race he's been entered in got him into a McLaren.

Hamilton created his chances in life....I wonder if we can say the same for young Senna?

Yes, luck doesn't really come into it when it comes to Hamilton, which is why I never liked that particular criticism/observation (depending on perspective) that he got a good car so quickly. He did work for it and he did deliver and he did in fact deserve a good car from the start of his career.

[Autumnpuma]

Nivola, on 13 March 2010 - 12:43 AM, said:

Yes, luck doesn't really come into it when it comes to Hamilton, which is why I never liked that particular criticism/observation (depending on perspective) that he got a good car so quickly. He did work for it and he did deliver and he did in fact deserve a good car from the start of his career.

Hamilton's story so far is a brutal and refreshing reminder of how to succeed in life. Establish one clear goal and work your arse off to get it. That's not to exclude other driver's effort and talent, but in this life you gets what you pays for. Trade on focused hard work and you gets a McLaren drive. Trade on a family name and you get an HRT. With three wheels.

[Jean Todt]

Autumnpuma, on 13 March 2010 - 12:37 AM, said:

You're skirting blasphemy. A racing driver's success isn't just dependent on what happens inside the c#ckpit. Hamilton's road to McLaren wasn't paved with luck, but hard work that other drivers just didn't do. Lewis and his dad put in a lot of work, hard-earned money and sweat equity in karts to be in a position to approach Ron Dennis at a young age. They made ballsy introductions and Lewis (still just a kid) said to Ron's face that he wanted to drive for him one day. That sort of confidence and nerve is rare. But after that introduction, Hamilton had to prove his worth. He did so and that got him Ron's help. Lewis' continued talent and pure speed on the racetrack in every race he's been entered in got him into a McLaren.

Hamilton created his chances in life....I wonder if we can say the same for young Senna?

Don't whip me....

I have used all those words 1000 times when I argue with Alehop and Maure....

I was just saying that, not everyone can get into a good car right from the start....for example, guys like Alonso too have worked really hard, and had to drive a Minardi for a start......

I don't belive Senna is in Lewis, Nando or Vettel League, like what his fans hype....if he is, then he has to prove it...

[Jean Todt]

Autumnpuma, on 13 March 2010 - 12:54 AM, said:

Hamilton's story so far is a brutal and refreshing reminder of how to succeed in life. Establish one clear goal and work your arse off to get it. That's not to exclude other driver's effort and talent, but in this life you gets what you pays for. Trade on focused hard work and you gets a McLaren drive. Trade on a family name and you get an HRT. With three wheels.

Fair enough...

[Autumnpuma]

Jean Todt, on 13 March 2010 - 12:57 AM, said:

Don't whip me....

You are forgiven. Take of the virgins and cheese by the altar and be pure.

Jean Todt, on 13 March 2010 - 12:57 AM, said:

I was just saying that, not everyone can get into a good car right from the start....for example, guys like Alonso too have worked really hard, and had to drive a Minardi for a start......

Alonso put in hard work, but so does a ditch-digger. It's the combination of a solid goal along with hard work that gets you places. Alonso never set a goal for himself like Lewis did. He never targeted a top F1 team and set about to make himself noticed by them. Alonso just raced hard and trusted that his talent would ensure he'd rise up in the junior formulas. Indeed, when he was in GP2 (F3000 back then) he didn't look all that impressive with the exception of a ballsy move at Eau Rouge. Lewis by contrast did look impressive, all season long. Alonso's performance in F3000 showed he was worth a Minardi drive. Lewis' performance showed he was worth a McLaren. Who worked harder?

Alonso perhaps had to work harder at Minardi to get noticed by the bigger teams and even then his move to Renault wasn't a move to a top team. His failure to plan ahead like Hamilton had done cost him many years of hard work in F1 to catch up.

This post has been edited by Autumnpuma: 13 March 2010 - 01:10 AM

[Quiet One]

Autumnpuma, on 13 March 2010 - 01:07 AM, said:

You are forgiven. Take of the virgins and cheese by the altar and be pure.




Alonso put in hard work, but so does a ditch-digger. It's the combination of a solid goal along with hard work that gets you places. Alonso never set a goal for himself like Lewis did. He never targeted a top F1 team and set about to make himself noticed by them. Alonso just raced hard and trusted that his talent would ensure he'd rise up in the junior formulas. Indeed, when he was in GP2 (F3000 back then) he didn't look all that impressive with the exception of a ballsy move at Eau Rouge. Lewis by contrast did look impressive, all season long. Alonso's performance in F3000 showed he was worth a Minardi drive. Lewis' performance showed he was worth a McLaren. Who worked harder?

Alonso perhaps had to work harder at Minardi to get noticed by the bigger teams and even then his move to Renault wasn't a move to a top team. His failure to plan ahead like Hamilton had done cost him many years of hard work in F1 to catch up.

That's a Mt.Everest of bollocks! (well, you were expecting me to come back like this didn't you?)
Lewis the most hard working driver? It is all subjective. I can write another fairy tale based on the same facts: All he did was let Daddy Hamilton and Ron Dennis highly homosexual bond with him work his magic and he was set on a track, no wonder he had a target, it was put ahead for him with fairly many options inside the motor racing world, he was pampered from then onwards. Meanwhile, Alonso had to fight the whole world, and his own demons, being a shy suspicious kid. Yet his magic was so strong that he still has the rare merit of being one of the few which got noticed by so many legends at Minardi, a team that usually meant you were doomed, or set for a veeeery long career as a tester or whatever. But he got noticed immediately by Todt who offered him a ride, by Schumi, who immediately identified him as his biggest foe, and by Flavio, which might have been in a midfield Renault at the time, but was still one of the most cunning team principals out there...

..and that would be a Mt.Everest of bollocks as well. Truth is, no driver gets to F1 just by their sheer hard work. At least haven't been like that for the past 30 years. They all needed to bring money, sponsorships, were part of a personal project (a la Hamilton) or a mix that included the need to develop a new market for F1 (a la Alonso).

As for Bruno, he was away from racing due to family pressure since Ayrton's death until he was 21. From there he could have simply announced "hey, I am the Messiah, my Uncle told you about" and let the name work its magic. Yet he chose the hard way. He was approached by some big teams in the past just because of the sponsorship his name would bring and he said he wasn't ready.

Is he good? No idea. Did he had an easy path to F1? A thousand million times no. Would it have been even harder or impossible had he had another surname? Certainly, and he admitted that. Let the guy race. He has as many credentials as half the field when they arrived to F1. And if he is 10% as good as his uncle, it would have been worth it.

Also sprach die Ruhe Ein

[Jean Todt]

Autumnpuma, on 13 March 2010 - 01:07 AM, said:

You are forgiven. Take of the virgins and cheese by the altar and be pure.




Alonso put in hard work, but so does a ditch-digger. It's the combination of a solid goal along with hard work that gets you places. Alonso never set a goal for himself like Lewis did. He never targeted a top F1 team and set about to make himself noticed by them. Alonso just raced hard and trusted that his talent would ensure he'd rise up in the junior formulas. Indeed, when he was in GP2 (F3000 back then) he didn't look all that impressive with the exception of a ballsy move at Eau Rouge. Lewis by contrast did look impressive, all season long. Alonso's performance in F3000 showed he was worth a Minardi drive. Lewis' performance showed he was worth a McLaren. Who worked harder?

Alonso perhaps had to work harder at Minardi to get noticed by the bigger teams and even then his move to Renault wasn't a move to a top team. His failure to plan ahead like Hamilton had done cost him many years of hard work in F1 to catch up.

Oops..I supported Alonso...

I get your point St.Puma...

[adamstrags]

Blimey - my 2 cents (cos you need it like a hole in the head)...

I don't care how Hamilton, Alonso, Button, Senna, Piquet, Chandhok, Kubica etc etc etc get to F1.
All I care about is if they're good enough to be there once they are.
Second - I'll rate their worth on what I see, (allowing for what car they're in).
By the end of the season I'll be able to say if Senna deserves to be in F1, deserves a better car or a worse one. That's the same for every other driver out there.
Take Kovi for instance - nice guy, but not good enough to deserve a McLaren seat.
Take Kobayashi - if he outperforms his car this year (which I hope he does), he should get a better drive.
Take Webber (I'll not make friends here) - he's middle of the road and doesn't deserve a Red Bull - he should be in a Williams or a Renault.

[AleHop]

Autumnpuma, on 13 March 2010 - 01:07 AM, said:

Alonso put in hard work, but so does a ditch-digger. It's the combination of a solid goal along with hard work that gets you places. Alonso never set a goal for himself like Lewis did. He never targeted a top F1 team and set about to make himself noticed by them. Alonso just raced hard and trusted that his talent would ensure he'd rise up in the junior formulas. Indeed, when he was in GP2 (F3000 back then) he didn't look all that impressive with the exception of a ballsy move at Eau Rouge. Lewis by contrast did look impressive, all season long. Alonso's performance in F3000 showed he was worth a Minardi drive. Lewis' performance showed he was worth a McLaren. Who worked harder?

You may not compare Alonso and Hamilton on that respect. Spain had some tradition in rallying and something like normal cars racing on tracks but single-seaters were a completely different story. Almost nothing. Probably someone like Schumacher had in mind he wanted to drive for Mercedes or Hamilton would dream to drive for McLaren but Alonso's target was 'just' the F1 World Championship. In his F3000 season he could hardly speak English and he hugely improved throughout the season. Alonso is a miracle, almost like an Arabian ski jumper World Champion.

I think only Kubica parallels Alonso on his path to F1.

Autumnpuma, on 13 March 2010 - 01:07 AM, said:

Alonso perhaps had to work harder at Minardi to get noticed by the bigger teams and even then his move to Renault wasn't a move to a top team. His failure to plan ahead like Hamilton had done cost him many years of hard work in F1 to catch up.

Alonso had to grab any chance of testing for teams like Minardi, Renault or Sauber among others which Hamilton didn't need to do. Hamilton is a very talented racing driver, hard worker, etc. but their path to F1 and WDC was different.

[Autumnpuma]

Quiet One, on 13 March 2010 - 01:39 AM, said:

That's a Mt.Everest of bollocks! (well, you were expecting me to come back like this didn't you?)

Of course! I fully expected an old communist like you to come down on the side against hard work and personal accountability.

Quiet One, on 13 March 2010 - 01:39 AM, said:

Lewis the most hard working driver? It is all subjective.

Did I say 'the most hard working driver'? Really? I'd hate to think you'd stoop to inserting words where there were none in order make my argument seem like the rantings of a fanatic rather than the considered argument I posted.

Quiet One, on 13 March 2010 - 01:39 AM, said:

I can write another fairy tale based on the same facts: All he did was let Daddy Hamilton and Ron Dennis highly homosexual bond with him work his magic and he was set on a track, no wonder he had a target, it was put ahead for him with fairly many options inside the motor racing world, he was pampered from then onwards. Meanwhile, Alonso had to fight the whole world, and his own demons, being a shy suspicious kid. Yet his magic was so strong that he still has the rare merit of being one of the few which got noticed by so many legends at Minardi, a team that usually meant you were doomed, or set for a veeeery long career as a tester or whatever. But he got noticed immediately by Todt who offered him a ride, by Schumi, who immediately identified him as his biggest foe, and by Flavio, which might have been in a midfield Renault at the time, but was still one of the most cunning team principals out there...

Ah, so you are trying to reduce my post into something akin to the fairy tale you've posted. You realize that I've posted factual accounts of Hamilton's career and his path into McLaren, don't you? You look a bit silly to suggest any of that is a fairy tale. I know, you call it a Mt. Everest of bollocks in the quote below, but your intent is to paint an extremely silly picture, compare my well-written, true and fair post to it in an effort to make mine look silly and yours reasonable. I would suggest that your thoughts here would have more impact if you dropped the debate tactics and tried to prove any of my points about Hamilton false by showing how I'm wrong.

Quiet One, on 13 March 2010 - 01:39 AM, said:

..and that would be a Mt.Everest of bollocks as well. Truth is, no driver gets to F1 just by their sheer hard work. At least haven't been like that for the past 30 years. They all needed to bring money, sponsorships, were part of a personal project (a la Hamilton) or a mix that included the need to develop a new market for F1 (a la Alonso).

As for Bruno, he was away from racing due to family pressure since Ayrton's death until he was 21. From there he could have simply announced "hey, I am the Messiah, my Uncle told you about" and let the name work its magic. Yet he chose the hard way. He was approached by some big teams in the past just because of the sponsorship his name would bring and he said he wasn't ready.

Is he good? No idea. Did he had an easy path to F1? A thousand million times no. Would it have been even harder or impossible had he had another surname? Certainly, and he admitted that. Let the guy race. He has as many credentials as half the field when they arrived to F1. And if he is 10% as good as his uncle, it would have been worth it.

Also sprach die Ruhe Ein

The part in bold I believe I've answered here: Did you intentionally mean to mis-quote me?

Autumnpuma, on 13 March 2010 - 01:07 AM, said:

It's the combination of a solid goal along with hard work that gets you places.

I'm sorry, Andres, but nothing at all in what I've posted was incorrect, either in fact or philosophy. Senna's flaw was in not realizing what a chance he had when, as you say, the big teams came knocking at his door. That was his 'Lewis moment'. I can't help but wonder what might have been if, when talking to those big teams, Senna would have shown the same nervy confidence in himself that Lewis had shown Ron Dennis. Certainly Senna would then have had to back it all up, but that's just what Lewis did. He spoke tall and delivered tall. Senna should have taken that chance. It was that missed chance, that wrong decision, that crucial moment that paved the road that led to the c#ckpit of the HRT. Where he goes from here will all be catch-up for failed judgment.

Also, every driver gets to F1 by a combination of well-considered decisions, a personal goal and hard work. Let's take it line by line:

Quiet One, on 13 March 2010 - 01:39 AM, said:

They all needed to bring money, sponsorships,

Sponsorship money may get a driver into F1, but then it becomes very easy to see which drivers got that money through hard work. Those drivers go on to bigger and better teams. Those drivers who put in the solid work needed stay in F1 long after their sponsors leave. You see, success is entirely based on hard work. Also, consider that in many cases, sponsorship money is initially sought after by the driver himself while in the lower formulas. That, too, has a success bred from hard work.

Quiet One, on 13 March 2010 - 01:39 AM, said:

were part of a personal project (a la Hamilton)

This is incorrect. I'm surprised you'd say this considering the facts are out there about how Ron Dennis came to sponsor and guide Hamilton. I sometimes wish I had Cav's ability to make people feel utterly foolish for posting a foolish thing, but I like you too much and there's only one Cav.

Quiet One, on 13 March 2010 - 01:39 AM, said:

or a mix that included the need to develop a new market for F1 (a la Alonso)

In many nations, the path to F1 was exactly what Alonso faced in Spain. Local karting championships leading to the world karting championship leading to any number of European junior formulas. I'm not denying any hard work on Alonso's part to secure sponsorship, but Lewis did something different and far more effective. You see, sponsorship will get you into the door of a few midgrade junior formula teams. Talent and sponsorship will get you a bit higher. Lewis didn't bother with that. He targeted the team principal of an F1 team that has always been at the sharp end of the grid (at least in Lewis' memory). That move, combined with talent, helped get Lewis into the top teams. But here's where you fail in your view of Hamilton/Dennis' relationship. You think that after the meeting Uncle Ron Carusoe took pity on the poor black child and propped the talentless, lazy Friday into the best cars (how does it feel to have your words twisted into a fairy tale?). The reality is as I've stated it: Hamilton had to prove his talent, dedication and work ethic to Ron in order to keep Ron's guidance. Yes, Ron guided his career, but that was based on Hamilton's continued hard work.

[Autumnpuma]

AleHop, on 13 March 2010 - 02:27 AM, said:

You may not compare Alonso and Hamilton on that respect. Spain had some tradition in rallying and something like normal cars racing on tracks but single-seaters were a completely different story. Almost nothing. Probably someone like Schumacher had in mind he wanted to drive for Mercedes or Hamilton would dream to drive for McLaren but Alonso's target was 'just' the F1 World Championship.

I agree that Alonso worked hard but notice the part I've put in bold. Lewis' target was McLaren and he got it. Alonso's target was F1 and he got it. In a Minardi. Hard work and goal. Magic.

AleHop, on 13 March 2010 - 02:27 AM, said:

In his F3000 season he could hardly speak English and he hugely improved throughout the season. Alonso is a miracle, almost like an Arabian ski jumper World Champion.

No doubt had Alonso put in the work required to learn English sooner, he would have been able to communicate to his engineers better in F3000 and forge friendships sooner with the F1 teams. You see, hard work again. You can't get around it.

AleHop, on 13 March 2010 - 02:27 AM, said:

I think only Kubica parallels Alonso on his path to F1.

I don't know about Kubeetza's rise to F1.

AleHop, on 13 March 2010 - 02:27 AM, said:

Alonso had to grab any chance of testing for teams like Minardi, Renault or Sauber among others which Hamilton didn't need to do. Hamilton is a very talented racing driver, hard worker, etc. but their path to F1 and WDC was different.

And I explained why those paths were different. Hard work and goals. Did you bother to read my posts? They were quite clear. Please, if you're going to respond to me at least do me the honor of reading what I've written.

EDIT: Had Alonso established as his goal a top F1 team, as Lewis had, he might not have had to scramble for a test with a lower team. Alonso's flaw wasn't lack of hard work, but rather the lack of a clear goal. Hamilton gained a top team through a clear and superior goal. Both have talent and both work hard, but my analogy of a hard-working ditch-digger is close to the mark. Hard work without a goal is just a hole in the ground.

This post has been edited by Autumnpuma: 13 March 2010 - 02:45 AM

[ecapdeville]

I dont know you but this pictures give me the "Chills" just remember the old and original Senna...he really look alike with the helmet on, an the colors and those strips...wow...I hope he had a good season.